Changes likely for Rotorua’s election bill amid concern it’s undemocratic
A controversial bill which introduces specialist seats to the Rotorua District Council, with a focus on increasing Māori representation, is likely to face changes after the attorney-general said it presented an unjustified disadvantage to non-Māori.
Tāmati Coffey, the Labour MP who sponsored Rotorua District Council’s bill, said the council was considering the attorney-general’s concerns and was speaking to the Ministry of Justice about potential fixes.
The bill would see Rotorua District Council comprising 10 councillors and the mayor. Of the 10 councillors, three would be elected by voters on the Māori roll and another three would be elected by voters from the general roll. The other four, and the mayor, would be elected by the voters at large.
The concern is that of Rotorua’s residents, the general roll has more than double the number of voters than the Māori roll – at 55,600 to 21,700 voters.
I think the Rotorua Council redesign of 1-person-1-vote value democracy RIGHT WHEN Labour are trying to deflect right wing claims that co-governance creates special privilege for Māori is the kind of political incompetence that would see you unable to get laid in a monkey brothel wearing a banana suit.
I mean come on!
Greens and Labour all voted for it on first reading! What part of 21700 on the Māori vote equals almost 55600 on the general roll didn’t they appreciate?
I fear the tiny Wellington bubble world of militant pronoun signalling and Te Reo pronunciation correcting snark is a tad rich for the blood of most Kiwis.
They will not understand why 21 700 get the same say as 55 600.
They will suspect ACT and National are correct when they hint at some secret collusion to rob them of something intangible like representation on the local fucking council!
Rawiri attacking David Parker probably isn’t helping either…
Attorney-General David Parker deeming the Rotorua Lakes District Council’s proposed Māori ward restructure is discriminatory has earned him a rebuff from Waiariki MP Rawiri Waititi.
Waititi, the Māori Party co-leader, has accused Parker of “caucasity” for his comments over the District Council Representative Arrangements Bill, which would give 21,700 Māori roll voters three seats – the same number as the 55,600 general roll voters.
…at a time when Polls suggest the Māori Party might be Queenmaker, Rawiri might think about how attacking David Parker is just giving National and ACT ammunition, but that would require a level of strategy beyond yelling ‘bingo’.
Hilariously it is actually David Parker’s caucasity that Rawiri should be appealing to rather than denigrate.
One person one vote is an important value in Democracy, B-U-T it’s not the only value!
Rawiri just needs to look at the rich history and tradition of white democracy to win David over!
We already have one person two votes in NZ for MMP.
In America the Senate isn’t one person one vote, neither is the Electoral College!
Even in England, the home of our Westminster system, they have an Upper House with the House of Lords!
There are plenty of examples of Rawiri’s hated caucasity that actually support his desires for a democratic process that enhances and enshrines broader values of democracy beyond one-person-one-vote.
If he wasn’t so busy denouncing them, maybe he’d learn something from the caucasity of Western Democracy.
The Māori Party needs John Tamihere’s leadership right now and the Greens and Labour have got to stop shooting themselves in the foot every 5 minutes! Willie Jackson has kicked the issue to touch, but this could have been handled far better and sold using exisiting examples from other Democracies.
This was a needless forced error.
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Was it an error Bomber? Or did the “Wellington bubble world of militant pronoun signaling and Te Reo pronunciation correcting snark” just calculate that the rest of us – ‘the great unwashed’ would have to ‘suck it up’, as with their latest fads – a narrowly myopic history curriculum and a deceptive 3 waters power grab? Unfortunately this time they were caught out by one of their own, which at least shows some aspects of our governance are still working well.
I’m all for equality of opportunity, for all races -and we are nowhere near that yet, but a headlong rush toward inequality of suffrage is no solution to the problem.
There was an attempt to slip it through. They got found out, did a focus poll and changed tact when it became apparent the sheeple didn’t like it. Oh how shit is our politics.
Yes, but they’ve shown their hand. This is exactly how they believe the world should look…with everyone not identified by need, but purely by race
100% deliberate. Thought they had the power to get it done quickly and corruptly (via Maori Affairs Committee) and that we wouldnt notice. Soon they’ll begin wondering why none of us want to vote for them any more.
Fantail – Yes they did and yes they will be.
Fantail what was corrupt? The bill went through a first reading then went to review for its compliance with the bill of rights, following protocol. The governments own attorney general pointed out the problems? Where is the corruption?
100% Jason
it’s actually hilarious listening to rnz ‘presenters’ mangling the names of ukrainian places in a ‘right on’ attempt not to use ‘russian pronunciations’ never mind most of the ‘offending pronunciations’ are anglicised versions of russian pronunciations that probably make actual russians wince…..but I’m sure a ukrainian sat in a cold wet foxhole is glad rnz are behind them.
A three waters “power grab” that has accepted nearly all of the independent groups recommended changes, based on submissions, including making the councils shareholders.
Wheel – You will find that being a shareholder of something is worthless if you have no control over it – thus the deceptiveness of 3 waters claims that local councils will
“own” part of the assets This is the ‘co-governance’ thing that people won’t accept with ‘3 waters’ – 15% of the population (Iwi) are ceded 50% of the voting rights which effectively gives them control over everyone elses water. It is just wrong. Also interested in how you think the people of Gisborne and Nelson who have differing local water issues are going to be well served by yet another layer of bureaucrats sitting in 3 waters offices in Wellington.
It’s either incompetence (which is not a selling point) or it was deliberate and where Labour wants to take the nation (which is a cup of cold sick for New Zealanders outside the academic/activist/Labour caucus triangle).
National’s slogan for 2023 – ‘vote Labour, get the Maori Caucus and the Maori Party running the country’
Iwi/Kiwi
https://www.nationalgeographic.co.uk/animals/2018/10/meet-5-zombie-parasites-that-mind-control-their-hosts
And the Iwi Chairs Forum
Labour definitely had an entire manifesto going that they never advertised, never campaigned on and his away from as many prying eyes as they could.
3 Waters, Co governance, now this. What else?
Labour are burning through the trust factor rapidly!
Agree XRAY.
The manifesto they did reveal has not remotely been achieved.
Hungry children,housing etc etc.
Xray
Add to that the MIQ court ruling, growing crime, cost of living, Parker wealth tax quietly coming…I think it’s burnt through already.
Really XRAY? One minute they are a disorganised headless chicken now they are apparently Chancellor Palpatine about to execute order 66.
The Rotorua situation is a local bill from a local council. Three waters is not coming from the same place at all.
Yes. The difference is considerable.
y’know cabbage K he likes it both ways.
Well, they’re moving ahead with this one:
https://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/three-waters-reforms-nanaia-mahuta-and-grant-robertson-announce-next-steps/HUFOZTAW37DCOILDVS5KEWNMRM/
Simple really. It’s because theyre all a buncha fuckwits! And they think nobody is watching, paying attention!
Those 3 partys need time out!
McGillycuddy party all the way!
So this vote rigging gives local maori 2.5 votes per person to 1 vote for everyone else.
That’s a pretty cool trick. I wonder who thought that up? Really. They need to own up to that one because it’s a fuckn beauty!
It looks like Grant Robertson’s accounting software has been employed to do some electioneering vote-rigging now?
I’d be more concerned about the general election now for sure.
The knew because it’s their bill.
We all heard Jackson say it, they want to “tweak” democracy.
I don’t think so.
Jackson? Coffey said it and our buffoon of a Deputy PM considers democracy the “tyranny of the majority” This he said the day after Anzac Day in an interview with RNZ . Moronic callous twat.!
Labour have to go. I am tired of the tyranny of the useless professional managerial classes.
They knew exactly what they were doing and still know.
We should be horrified by this behaviour.
Racist!
Oh come on Bert, defend them ie labour with a good argument, not useless labelling
Anker
Forgive him, he’s an outraged Twitter Teenager.
Is that the best you can do ?
Mike Judge was right. You are a coward.
Read SpongeBob ‘s constant stalking posts Anker and of course sour cabbage, he’s only three. Now Labour have built more houses than National sold off. And just today Labour attacking Aucklands housing issues. Add David Carter addressing the rampant tax avoidance by the uber wealthy. We should be horrified that the little cabbage and SpongeBob don’t think these will benefit the country. But guess what Anker, they’re to busy hating because they are right wing, no more no less.
And perhaps cabbage should answer Mike Judges questions to him?
Or as we know cabbage is an imbecile Anker.
But they’re happy that National will give those with little a $2 a week tax cut ffs!
But they’re happy that National will give those with little a $2 a week tax cut ffs!
Not even the price of HALF a cabbage!!!
https://www.newworld.co.nz/shop/product/5046517_ea_000nw?name=green-cabbage-half
Correction: Not even HALF the price of HALF a cabbage!!! – Check the link.
I think you mean David Parker, not David Carter. I would listen to you more if you stopped the name calling. I am a Labour Party member. I am more likely to be drawn back to the fold by good arguments. I do think it is safe to say that housing has gone from a crisis to a catastrophe under labour.
Not sure you are a Labour Party member but I’ll take your word for it.
Can you confirm you have held others to account for name calling?
Yes I made a mistake, please forgive me Parker not Carter.
Your description of housing going from crisis to catastrophe tells me you haven’t done your groundwork in the evidence . Just repeating that kiwibuild was a failure doesn’t say anything about how Labour have built more houses ,added nearly 6,000 newly built homes, with 18,000 additional public and transitional homes already funded and on track to be delivered by 2024.
Compare that too…
https://www.stuff.co.nz/national/300050892/national-party-admits-it-sold-too-many-state-houses.
Did you seriously expect a magic bullet whereby 100’s of thousands of houses would be built in a few years Anker?
I categorically reject your assertion that it is a catastrophe and not only that their policies albeit having to be rejigged, have seen a slowing of the housing market and even a drop in prices allowing first home buyers an opportunity.
Happy to debate, as long as you don’t start with name calling as you will receive in kind.
“Did you seriously expect a magic bullet whereby 100’s of thousands of houses would be built in a few years Anker?”
Apparently Jacinda Ardern did just that in 2017.
Yes Ardern promised that.
OK BUT WHY is labour building any ‘affordable houses for sale’ that is not their job…state housing and shit loads of it is their job
how many of labs ‘new builds’ are social housing?
Well said Anker, The name-calling is tiresome.
Thank you Jason, yes it is.
John Key’s fault.
Happy to defend them on policy and what they were given from a poor National government Anker but what I won’t do is debate either Spongebob or Cabbages soundbites, both proclaimed right wing supporters who simply repeat media reports which as we well know, promote negativity and sensationalism.
Did they have anything to say on Carter going after tax on the uber rich or the 1.4 billion spend on Auckland housing growth…
https://www.rnz.co.nz/news/political/466032/government-announces-1-point-4b-funding-to-boost-auckland-housing-growth.
What about the 3 Waters reform designed to fix an existing broken system? Yet we Spongebob thinks it’s racist without any evidence?
Plenty to debate, but if you’re negative and right wing, you’ll post trash like those two do.
Gosh Bert calm down.
Yes a wee tweak to one person one vote.
“Just one little tweak” in democracy, like “Just one little nuke” in the Baltic.
The Maori co-leader reply demonstrates an remarkable level naive – in regards to them playing ‘us versus them’…the Maori vote is split between Maori Party/Labour/New Zealand First…not all Maori agree with this ‘us vs them’ stand.
As for Tamati Coffey proposal…it is another sign, we need another Government.
The whole notion that it is impossible for a white person to be discriminated against is straight out of the dangerously racist critical race theory play book.
How come there are homeless white people?
How come there are non white millionaires and celebrities?
why are there unemployed white people if white people are so privileged
How about we stop dividing people up into block identities dependant on their skin colour?
Come on NZ we are better than that. Let’s not go down the path the USA is going (social disharmony and escalating violence)
The answer is capitalism not because Maori are perceived as getting special treatment which is a bit of a stretch. Be aware the rhetoric portraying Maori as the big bad boogie man that gonna take your freedoms away.
actually the idea that only white people are racist predates CRT
the main problem in society is ‘cultural capital’ or more prosaically ‘pull’ anyone who says a maori female departmental manager is as oppressed as a homeless maori man is frankly full of it…equally being a middle class female student is not the same ‘oppression’ as a white disabled pensioner…
now this isn’t to say each group don’t have ‘problems’ but just that there is a ‘hierarchy of suffering’ and no they’re not all the same.
This it is all Labour doings. No point blaming the MP for what Labour fucks up. As for Tamati, he is a good ‘diversity quota pick’ but sadly not a big thinker. But then maybe he was not hired for thinking but for doing as told.
Exactly. Tamati is pathetic list MP, and being so his total loyalty is only to the party, not his electorate, therefore he’s been given a dead rat by the powers above him to take a hit for the team.
I heard Neale Jones say that he was given the Bill from the Rotorua Council to present, so was obliged to forward it. If you believe that I have a bridge to sell you.
This is a Labour Bill they were looking for a test case to role out everywhere, but they got called out, as much as the media tried to ignore it.
Even Chadwick said it was a pause, it should be consigned to the rubbish bin, but this is He Puapua in action.
Also Bomber, Labour is part of the technocrats in Wllgtn. Just stop pretending they are not and see that life will be easier.
You know Labour are utterly fucked when all the comments on THIS blog post are against them!
And deservedly so. People are waking up.
Being against a particular policy is not being against the Party.
You’re happy with Nationals $2 a week tax bribe Andrew?
National = tax bribe.
Even the most superficial observation of Ardern and Robertson’s route to power would explain how this situation occurred.
Maori put them in power.
Mahuta rewrote Labour’s constitution during the long years in opposition and rebuilt Labour’s support base.
She designed and implemented the leadership changes which brought Cunliffe to power.
And the ABC’s white anted all her hard work. Maori kept Labour together Jackson delivered the support and Ardern like the toad she is is now paying the Maori arm of Labour back. If she doesn’t she’s toast if she pushes ahead with their wish list she’s toast. Couldn’t happen to a nicer bunch of people.
If the Prime Minister is a toad Shona may be she will find you under your rock. Just don’t shake your wattles.
Que????????????????
You call yourself a joker but you’re never funny is that cos you fancy the PM?
No accounting for taste now is there?
Our PM is ignorant and far too indolent to be a leading a nation.
Calling her a toad is far too polite .
Oh and I live in a beautiful forest clad valley and own my own water catchment and I am very happy with my home.
And you seriously think that the nice ACT and National will come and save us. They will sell and privatize health and education, there will be absolutely no help for the bottom feeders, say goodbye to the Treaty of Waitangi as the founding document, say hello to wage freezes and say hello to a $2 tax break for the squeezed middle ( how the right really love these catchy catch phrases). Say hello to the country being flooded with cheap labour, how the business people will embrace this because they will make a bigger profit on the back of these low paid immigrants never mind where they are going to live . Oh and lets have a multi million dollar new flag while we are at it , this will be John Key’s payback for giving Luxon the leadership of the National party. I can see a very bright future ahead for the rich of New Zealand but not sure where the rest of us will end up, probably feeding off the bottom .
And you seriously think that the nice ACT and National will come and save us.
Or that National would do any different??
Didn’t the Nats quietly start the process a few years back?
Yes Kheala. In the hysteria that gets conveniently forgotten.
But, but, but, Gillian, it’s all Labours fault, right?
yes because inaction is in itself an action
No John Key’s.
Yeah right Shona. That’s why Ardern was accused of abandoning Māori, and of genocide, for not prioritising their needs in the vax roll out and in subsequent reductions in restrictions. That really sounds like she has their back.
And merely being accused of abandoning Maori or even of genocide means she is guilty? I’m not sure what you think you’ve established, Wheeler. Maori activists often make outlandish statements – it doesn’t prove anything about reality.
accused yes and yet where is the evidence for those accusations? There is none.
Any reluctance by Maori to get vaccinated was down to attitude not access. I live in an area with a large Maori population and use a Maori health provider. They have done an excellent job up here and have tackled all the issues ( isolation access education) because once areas of need were recognized the funding was there to target them and the personnel was on the job. I am a realist . So up yours.
Shona you said Ardern is ‘paying Māori back’ which i took as meaning there was some sort of quid pro quo for their support . That didn’t make sense to me as Ardern seems to piss Māori off as much as anything. I see now you actually said she is paying back MPs and members in her own party, who happen to be Māori. Clearly I misinterpreted your post.
it does have to be said the govt tried everything with maori vax rates, they were ill served by their own influencers and leaders….sorry not all things are ‘evil whitey’
“… a needless UNforced error.” ??
I’m all for people at least trying to pronounce maori correctly, and I say this as the most shit language learner on the planet….but it would be nice if the courtesy(or in my case attempted courtesy) were reciprocated
What has been proposed by some in The Rotorua Lakes Council for a re-structure of heightened voting rights for Māori, is not just undemocratic but down right cringe worthy and naf, in that it’s a blatant form of tokenism and takes away the mana from those who have been elected on there own merits and credentials, who have served or are serving there peoples /community to the best of there abilities.
What’s next, raced based sports teams whereby you are picked on tribal affiliations not on one’s own skills!
Shame on those for supporting such a tunnel visioned proposal.
good post wooly
The FPP system at local council govt is redundant IMO if we are talking about inclusion. I believe their are TOW issue to consider. There are a number of provisions in the Local Government Act 2002 (the Act) that relate specifically to Māori.
The key provision is in section 4 of the Local Government Act 2002.
In order to recognize and respect the Crown’s responsibility to take appropriate account of the principles of the Treaty of Waitangi, and to maintain and improve opportunities for Māori to contribute to local government decision-making processes, Parts 2 and 6 provide principles and requirements for councils that are intended to facilitate participation by Māori in local government decision-making processes.
Whilst section 4 clearly acknowledges responsibility for the Treaty obligations lie with the Crown, Parts 2 and 6 of the Act are intended to facilitate participation of Māori in local government. Local government is charged with the responsibility to promote opportunities for Māori and tauiwi (other members of the public) to contribute to its decision-making processes.
These provisions apply to all Māori in the city, district, or region. They acknowledge that Māori other than mana whenua may be resident in the area.
Inclusiveness is a democratic value isn’t it? I mean Maori haven’t advocated that they want to impeded any New Zealanders progress to have better standards of life have they? And how has giving the Maori vote at local govt crippling our democracy? I totally agree that Rawiri needs to clarify his position without sounding layman which leaves this visceral distortion in the Pakeha vernacular.
Out of interest, what do you think the veto in the Maori Health bill was about?
Why do you think it was taken out? Because it unacceptably gave Maori the right to put their people first if need be. Same deal in Maori parliament proposals in He Pua Pua from memory.
Stephen, I accept that Maori have not as a people been uninclusive. However as someone who grew up and had family involved with dealing with the Maori Queen and other tribal elite, I know that some Tribal Elites were anything but inclusive towards other Maori or Pakeha.
Clearly there are historical reasons for this but I think you are naive if you think all Maori want inclusiveness. Many Maori do but some definitely dont and it doesnt take a genius to see some of the scions sitting on the Labour front benches.
Seriously you want me to believe that an anonymous person ‘Fantail’ writing on a blogsite claiming ‘as a child spent time around or associated with ‘Te Atairangikahu-Maori Queen’ and the ‘Elite Maori’ that you need to be considered as being truthful? Also making spurious claims that some Maori were inclusive and some weren’t doesn’t mean jack shit and sounds like a desperate attempt to characterize the intended target (Maori) using coded language that indicative of pakeha bigotry.
Gaslighting the veto without context is the nasty side of right wing propaganda. Sorry ‘Fantail’ You just can’t be taken seriously.
Believe what you will Stephen. Try considering other points of view rather than engage in blanket discrediting because it doesnt fit your world view.
I obviously did not have any direct contact with the Maori hierarchy but my father did. He also worked with Ngai Tahu, Nga Puhi and others. I travelled with him a lot in his work with the old Maori Affairs as he was a single Dad and we went all over and settled all over, Rotorua, Kaitaia, Hamilton, Christchurch and briefer jaunts to other rural areas like Waiheke and the East Cape.
There is nothing coded about what I said. My comments were lived reality and much of it, absolutely idyllic, accepted into and growing up with huge Maori families.
You may not be able to envisage a past where Pakeha and Maori mingled freely in many parts of the country (particularly rural) and worked together and saw themselves as community. Being no doubt younger than I, your reality and beliefs may differ.
I too worked with Maori tribal businesses for a period. And my view on the variability of Maori inclusiveness did not change. Like any group, some behaviours and beliefs are more common to some than to others.
As an example, in the recent Rotorua Council Maori wards issue, a Maori spokesperson (I have searched for the link but cant find where I read it) said that too many of the Maori on the Maori role are not part of the local Iwi so that means their people didnt have the influence they should have. It was used as an example of why they should have more seats.
Whilst I understand the comment, I’d have to say that it doesnt sound inclusive to me. It sounds like, we the original owners should be in charge and the rest of you, the community, should have lesser rights regardless of whether you are Maori or Tau Iwi.
I also note you didnt give a reasonable explanation for why the Maori veto’s were requested in the first place. If Maori are inclusive and genuinely want partnership, why would they want control over the other 85% especially if they have the right to choose Maori or Tau Iwi stream at will?
As for my voting preferences, until now, I have always voted Labour and once Alliance and once Green. So sorry not a right wing schill or gaslighter either but I freely admit I will now vote for anyone who believes absolutely in equal suffrage.
No tweaks or manipulations.
Firstly describing your assumed childhood upbringing on a blogsite with an anonymous name ‘Fantail’ is to be discredited as people tell lies to further their position especially on social media. Secondly Gaslighting the veto without context is a right-wing tactic that clearly evident in todays politics. Thirdly read the Local Government Act 2002 section 4 it will clarify your unfounded fears according to ‘you’ give ‘Maori special treatment’ and then translate that into the real world of what that looks like instead of fearmongering.
And I’m not understanding your view that “Back in the old days” Maori and pakeha got along fine and dandy especially in the country?
Now look here grandpa ‘Fantail’ let me remind you that the Pakeha existence in this country isn’t that old especially if we are talking generations. Now if your ancestor arrived here before the signing of the TOW then that just under 200 years and if your ancestors arrived post treaty then that under 180 years and you have to understand that European colonization in New Zealand is founded on Maori willingness to engage with Pakeha, to welcome them to this country, and to look after them, that lasted until the nineteen century until Pakeha became stronger, and there numbers became ever larger.
And you claim Maori aren’t fucken inclusive!!
“In order to recognize and respect the Crown’s responsibility to take appropriate account of the principles of the Treaty of Waitangi, ”
– there are no principles stated in the ToW.
These are the principles of the Treaty of Waitangi:
(1) The government has the right to govern and make laws
(2) Iwi have the right to organize as iwi, and, under the law, to control their
resources as their own
(3) All New Zealanders are equal before the law
(4) Both the government and iwi are obliged to accord each other
reasonable cooperation on major issues of common concern
(5) The government is responsible for providing effective processes for the resolution of grievances in the expectation that reconciliation can occur.
“One person one vote is an important value in Democracy, B-U-T it’s not the only value!”
One person one vote is the sine qua non of democracy. Without that, it isn’t democracy. The notion that people have greater electoral rights and influence because of skin colour (or in truth heritage, in NZ) is the sort of system which prevailed in apartheid South Africa, and in pre-civil rights US, particularly in the southern states.
“In America the Senate isn’t one person one vote, neither is the Electoral College!”
The senate is indeed one person one vote. The electoral college comprises voters and is convened to confirm (or otherwise) the appointment of a newly-elected president. Who’s also elected by popular vote.
“Even in England, the home of our Westminster system, they have an Upper House with the House of Lords!”
Many British people see the house of lords as a priori undemocratic. And they’re right: there’s no point in its continued existence. There’s a long-standing campaign to disestablish it, I believe. But that’s being resisted by the Establishment.
Caucacity: oh good grief…. Does that fellow Waititi even know what it means? I’ll bet he doesn’t. It’s a term which comes out of black America. Completely irrelevant in the NZ context.
And there goes Rawiri’s alibi for last year’s bizarre tweet about Caucasity. “It wasn’t me, just a junior who misunderstood our message”. Fool me once …
Right D’Esterre but one man one vote didn’t help Al Gore did it. He won the popular vote but lost in the college system. I think Martyn has a point.
Wheel: lest we forget, here’s what actually happened:
“The Florida election recount of 2000 was a period of vote recounting in Florida that occurred during the weeks after Election Day in the 2000 United States presidential election between George W. Bush and Al Gore. The Florida vote was ultimately settled in Bush’s favor by a margin of 537 votes when the U.S. Supreme Court, in Bush v. Gore, stopped a recount that had been initiated upon a ruling by the Florida Supreme Court.
Bush’s win in Florida gave him a majority of votes in the Electoral College and victory in the presidential election.”
That’s from Al Gore’s own Wiki page: he didn’t “lose” in the electoral college system. And it’s what I remember of that situation. Quibble all you like about the Florida recount, that was the Supreme Court’s decision. The rest, as the saying goes, is history. And it was democracy in action. Both Gore and Bush were elected under the “one person, one vote” system. It came down to a recount in Florida. Nobody paying attention then could forget the “hanging chads”!
D’Esterre I am not quibbling about anything. You are right Bush won the electoral college vote. You don’t have to go to Al Gore to know that, in terms of the popular vote across the US, Gore got about half a million more votes than Bush did. Clearly that didn’t help in the college vote
Wheel, Bush won the EC vote because the Florida recount had been stopped by the supreme court. And there was a recount because the margin of votes between Bush and Gore was very narrow. Nothing whatever to do with “one person one vote”. Anybody paying attention at the time will remember the furore over the “hanging chads”. That result in no way indicates a need to “tweak” democracy.
And what point would that be, Wheel? That the imperfections of other democracies justify race-based gerrymandering of our system? Martyn’s article is pure sophistry.
Pope the point being that a lot of the time people say one man one vote and have a view of democracy that might be unrealistically simplistic. The US popular vote versus college system being one. I was commenting on DE’s view of the US.
Wheel: “The US popular vote versus college system…”
The EC decision is dependent upon the results of the popular vote. The US voting system may be labyrinthine, but it doesn’t follow that it isn’t democratic.
and that’s why despite the bumper stickers the US isn’t a democracy
the HoL ironically gave some sound and sensible decisions when it was full of old buffers and ex-colonels often putting the brakes on the excesses of the govt of the day…since it’s become full of political appointees and russian oligarchs it’s become a rubber stamp….undemocratic yes, occasionally useful definitely
This seems ludicrous to be even happening in Rotorua. 42% of population in Rotorua are Maori. Just stand some decent maori candidates and then get out the maori vote if people want to vote along a racial divide. Its notable that the number of maori on the maori roll in Rotorua is much less than the number it could be. Also if maori dont turn out to exercise their democratic rights isnt really a reason to get rid of the equality of one man one vote. The bill that was put forward could br called maori supremicist. Accusing someone of “caucasity” is as racially offensivensive as saying “dumb maoris” I hope he was made to apologise and retract the statement in parliament. Never the less there are 15,800 maori kids at school in Rotorua and only 15,000 kids of all other ethnicities. So in a generation or less maori will be the democratic majority if they were all to vote on racial lines. And that may be the issue democracy may never provide the desired result for those maori pushing for cogovernance and more “maorisity” because they may not have the backing of those maori who back meritocracy.
So is it correct to say that with Local bills, a Bill of Rights analysis is not undertaken until the bills appear at select committee? Apparently with other bills this analysis occurs before first reading? As Martyn says Rotorua District/Lakes Council prepared the bill and it was sponsored by Coffey.
If this is the case have the government really “tried to slip it through”?
I’m not represented in local govt…can I have a seat please….I could do with the perks.
The cats out the bag –
https://www.newshub.co.nz/home/politics/2022/04/revenue-minister-david-parker-s-investigation-into-tax-share-of-top-earners-slammed-as-waste-of-time-during-university-q-a.html
Clearly a capital gains tax is on the cards again next time, not they I trust Labour to implement it even if God himself commanded it (if there was one). This means that Jacinda will not ‘be available’ next time, remember she banned any thought of bringing fairness to NZ. The smiley cardboard cut out must be heading to the UN after all. Gordon Browns turn?
I’d give it Trevor
Why is there a need for this bill in Rotorua. I could understand the requirement in some other parts of the country where maori are an actual minority and are subject to the tyranny of the majority or are not of a significant enough population to have the representation to force a consensus. This is not the case in Rotorua where 42% of the population is maori. Why do Rotorua Maori need special wards when its possible to stand decent Maori candidates, get out the Maori vote and achieve potentially achieve democratically 40-50% Maori representation on the council. I say 50% representation because there are a bunch of Pakeha who have no hesitation in voting for good Maori candidates ie. they are not racist.
Meanwhile Rotorua council sponsors a parliamentary bill to scrap “one man one vote”. I am a life long supporter of Labour because they seemed to be social democratic party not communist “once cadre one vote” or capitalist “one dollar one vote” Party.
Anyway the word in Labour Party circles is co-governance (which scraps one man one vote) is a done deal. The radical implementation of this policy is being done with Roger Douglas like stealth and we all know how that neo-liberal experiment turned out. Prediction, co-governance will mean a number of gravy train technocrats become Alan Gibbs size wealth Rangatira.
Labour kissed goodbye to the idea of “from each according to his ability, to each according to his needs” a long time ago, now that idea is seen as just another bit of “caucasity”.
And Bomber as a labour voter and some time critic and TDB donor (just saying) it would be good to comment here so The Party can get some feedback without being moderated (free speech de-platformed).
Why is there a need for this bill in Rotorua.
Because there are a large number of homeless there, and by far the majority (at least 90%) are people who, by their ancestry, should be living securely on that land.
Just a few years ago there was a lovely man going out of his way to provide a roof over the heads and a bed / matress for the night for the homeless, – or for homeless men. So on the cold nights (and Rotorua can be VERY cold in winter) – they at least had some shelter.
And the bloody COUNCIL said, “Nawww… It’s not a good look… Can you say “tourists”.. etc etc (Wide paraphrase 🙂 but the general gist is there.
That bloke had been paying for it all himself, and raising what little money he could, to help those men. He was distraught for them, – the anaemic counsellors in their warm comfy beds wouldn’t hack it.
(There are news refs – I don’t have time – look it up if you want.)
Yes, I remember that. But scrapping one man one vote won’t fix it and probably less likely to fix it.
I remember that lovely man, I wonder if he is still there? He did ultimately get some help from somewhere in the end.
…..there are a bunch of Pakeha who have no hesitation in voting for good Maori candidates ie. they are not racist….Well said Joseph and here in Rotorua there has been no shortage of Māori who have represented our fair town with pride and mana, who hold the respect of all people. Indeed, there is a current councillor within RLC who I would wager will be our first Māori Wahine prime minister !
if one person one vote goes, so does any semblance democracy, the popular ballot is the only test…and yes it is that simple…if interest groups get special votes(yes I’m aware of the treason of giving lobbyists the time of day) civil society becomes entirely pointless…
You hit the nail on the head gagarin. This is why co-governance will never work. It is anti-democratic and apportions voting power based on upon skin-colour and heritage. We can solve our problems without destroying our liberal democracy in the process. We need more representation of the people not less.
?
https://www.nzherald.co.nz/rotorua-daily-post/news/rotorua-lakes-councillor-peter-bentley-resigns-during-fiery-exchange-with-mayor-steve-chadwick/4BNUQAZRQQ7LPHUDOWCZBW5PBE/
And while we rabble around the bonfire that’s the head injured, one eyed chicken our AO/NZ’s been redesigned to be this shit’s going down.
NZ Herald.
“Digital Economy Minister David Clark: “This investment demonstrates the high level of confidence the international business community has in backing NZ’s economy.”
Dave? Which economy’s that again? Tourism?
https://www.nzherald.co.nz/business/amazon-says-it-will-spend-75-billion-on-giant-data-centres-in-auckland/CRD5RLISXWWRXEB5YJXKIT6S5A/
I laughed so hard I shit myself so I had to txt a tech company to ask how to sort that out and they replied that I should simply wipe my arse with my iPhone.
Priceless! Was a three-ply iPhone?
super duper high speed mega broadband…achieves nothing a mate of mine has to send massive files around the world, this happens quickly what takes time is actual work…getting crap around faster doesn’t make it noit crap, it just makes it faster moving crap…if you can stream a movie then it’s good enough.
I’d like to see the actual costing analysis that shows actual real benefits quantified of faster b-band, sports stadia, convention centres etc etc etc.