A welcome change of direction away from mandatory vaccinations

1. I respect the rights of people to make their own choices in life, this is a country that has great freedoms despite what the AV mob say. While I strongly disagree with the AV mob which includes members of my own family, it is their right to do so, and nobody is gonna force them to get jabbed. But, protesting about the consequences of their own decision is illogical, probably futile and bloody annoying to the rest of us that don’t want to get infected by Sars2. That’s our choice, which happens to align with MoH mandate and is recommended by science and facts, not social media.
   I struggle to understand those that have been vaccinated themselves, like your good self, agreeing with the AV mob. And your far from alone with this stance. A foot in both camps? Why get the jab if you oppose it?

   • I’ll say this again. If only, if only, if only the unvaccinated got infected with ‘Sars2’. If only…..

   • Nowhere does he say he is opposed to the jab that I can see, he says he is pro choice. He is opposed to the mandate ‘no jab, no job’ in many areas.
     Given all the people I know who are not having the jab, teachers, lawyers, nurses, idwives etc. I would not refer to them as the AV Mob. These people do not get their information from social media at all. These are educated intelligent people whose choice I respect.

2. Sure you can prove you are Covid free by getting a test, the process of do this is simple…
   Get Covid test which you can pay for at a cost of $141 inc GST (https://www.labtests.co.nz/commercial-services/pre-departure-covid-19-test/).
   Isolate yourself from everyone in a suitable location where there is no risk of infection, preferably a purpose built facility with filtered ventilation system.
   Wait for results.
   Get Negative results.
   Go about your life as normal, but avoid everyone else & don’t go anywhere where you could get infected with Covid.
   Enjoy.

   Or maybe just get vaccinated, it might just protect your health or the health of someone you care about.

   • Richard, in the latest UK COVID report 87% of COVID deaths in the 80+ age category were vaccinated. At some point it’ll dawn on people that the vaccine ain’t that effective.

     • We cannot vaxx our way out of the pandemic…

       • Ditto!

       • Duh? and WTF?

       • nathan but if we’re vaxxed the actual disease if contracted is milder, so we can’t vax our way out but we can vax our way to fewer actual fatalities

         ….and understanding that is too difficult because?

     • People like you need to be called out for your stupid lies, and John is just adding fuel to your nutters fire.

       If what you say is even true (unlikely) you need all age ranges because age related mortality differs with Covid. You cherry pick the 80+ age group to support your bullshit argument.

       The vaccine overwhelmingly works – stop spreading lies you anti vax nutter.

       • yes!!

       • Interestingly some data we were shown the other day, had mortality rate curve for unvaccinated 50 to 60 year olds almost matched that for vaccinated 80+ year olds. Other data showed that while the protection against infection & transmission dropped off from around 90% to around 40% over a period of about 6 months, the protection against hospitalisation remained consistently around 90%, so you generally remain protected from the worst outcomes by being vaccinated. Isn’t science wonderful.

     • Yes how many jabs and how often.

       • like the flu it will be an annual thing. If you want to be protected. If not expect no sympathy and to be quarantined in a leper colony style setting eventually.

     • Here’s a little experiment you can try…
       Get a friend, some body armour & a shotgun loaded with number 9 bird shot.
       Put on the body armour and have your friend shoot you in the chest with the shotgun.
       Sure you’ll be bruised, battered & probably not particularly happy, but largely unscathed.
       Now take off the body armour & repeat.
       Your friend may also want to get a lawyer at this point.

       You are considerably less likely to be infected, hospitalized or die from Covid if you are vaccinated. Your UK example is basically because you don’t actually understand how mathematics & statistics works.

       • “Your UK example is basically because you don’t actually understand how mathematics & statistics works.”

         And that’s the simple truth.
         I suspect that his argument has been already explained to him as logically fallacious but he’s still prepared to use it.

         • Richard, I’m just wanting to establish one fact at a time. Damn, you guys get all twisted up over one figure. I’m well aware of the severely decline efficacy of the jab ie. yes for a short period it is effective.

           • Perhaps you just need to find that perfect YouTube clip that has all the facts you need 😉

             Or at least the ones that fit with your confirmation bias & conspiracy theories.

             We are about to move from theoretical exposition to real world, practical experimentation. Buckle up, it’s going to be bumpy come December.

     • off white, the problem with that statistic is it does not identify if the death was ’caused by’ or ‘with’ covid. The vaccine is not an elixir of eternal youth.

       • Peter, I agree. Who knows how many gun shot victims they counted as COVID deaths. But yes, vast majority are likely with not from. Obesity plays a huge role.

         • More lies. Actual case fatality can be calculated several ways, but the most reveal is deaths above average for a given population, and Covid has massively spiked these around the world.

           You just want to cherry pick data to support your viewpoint.

     • And they used the Astra Zenica vaccine.
       My uncle has long covid now in the UK.

     • Yeah hey were vaccinated with Astra Zeneca not Pfizer big difference. The UK has at least 3 variants.So yeah nah and exactly HOW MANY people was that anyway? The majority of deaths in the UK are under 55 years.

       • Wrong, absolutely wrong, but you could always prove yourself right. Unfortunately for you, the information (and bless the UK Health and Security Agency, for their in-depth information) clearly points towards the 70+ age range.

     • and the ossies in germany and austria are full of the unvaxxx….how about that .
       .. mr ‘I do my own research on twatter’

       • gagarin, ok so you obviously don’t do any research. Nice one.

         • SO YOUR DISPUTING THE CURRENT WAVE IN EASTERN EUROPE AND THE GERMAN SPEAKING COUNTRIES IS HAPPENING….that kinda underlines your facebook standard of research

     • Yes, this report is incredibly revealing and it actually stretches a lot further than what you are saying off white.

   • So true. John when will you acknowledge you’re wrong on this issue?

     I know you’ve spent a lifetime standing up for the underdog, but this is medicine and a serious pandemic, it’s different this time.

     You are just plain wrong about this issue.

   • Look, I am vaccinates I have persuaded some hasitant members of family to get vaccinated, too. But I think that with the high rate of vaccination the mandates could be milder. The teachers could teach on-line, the doctors and nurses could do on-line consultations (as thez do in Auckland) and call and consult especially those who are going to be isolated at home with Covid.

     • Good on you. Respect.

3. Everyone is deliberately misleading themselves. A study of over 600 covid cases and their households conducted by the Oxford university and published in the Lancet, found that vaccinated covid carriers infected unvaccinated partners at exactly the same rate as unvaccinated carriers. The partners were one third less likely to catch the virus if they were themselves vaccinated (25% c/f 38%).
   The manufacturers of the vaccine have never claimed that it will prevent infection, only reduce severity and deaths.
   The vaccinated are more of a danger as they are more likely to be carriers without showing symptoms; and compared to unvaccinated with a negative test they are infinitely more likely spread the disease.
   The reasoning of this priority of vaccination to testing only makes sense if the vaccination is what matters, not whether the disease spreads.
   D J S

   • nobody denies the vaxxed can carry the virus…what would you rather have a mild case or a life threatening one? well you know what you need to do don’t you

4. People reading this piece and assuming the author is opposed to vaccination, or agrees with any argument put against vaccination, need to reread. And then ponder what they have read.
   When comprehension is so poor, even with a clearly written piece such as this, what hope is there for ditching the fear and division?

   • Frankie, 100%. John is pro vax, anti apartheid.

   • I don’t think people are necessarily making that mistake – there are obviously people on both sides of the debate here so it has naturally created a conversation – which I think is a good thing. Whether anyone changes their mind is another matter!

   • that’s not our interpretation. We’re calling John out because he is wilfully mis-stating and misunderstanding material human risk, and conflating it with some sense of freedom/entitlement.

     Facts:

     -vaccinated are much less likely to catch and spread Covid
     – if they catch it, they show much less severe symptoms
     – children can catch Covid and suffer from it too
     – long Covid is a thing, perhaps in as much as 1/3 of infected patients
     – testing is an imperfect means of ensuring someone is infected

     Add this up and the material risk of an unvaccinated person teaching in a school to unvaccinated students is too high to tolerate.

     Simple

5. Vaccines don’t make a jot of sense when one acknowledges the fact that a vaccinated person can transmit the virus the same as an unvaccinated one.

   • and the vaccinated person is not going to die or likely to become seriously ill with a life threatening infection unlike the unvaccinated person. Fixed that for ya!

   • “the fact that a vaccinated person can transmit the virus the same as an unvaccinated one”

     It’s just that much fewer of them do.

   • One should acknowledge that, as usual, you are WRONG.
     Vaccination does provide a lot better protection from both catching and spreading the virus.
     But I guess you are one who would never let the facts get in the way of a good trolling session.

6. “There is a welcome change of direction in the government announcement yesterday that Aucklanders will be able to leave the city to travel around the country from mid-December by showing they are double vaccinated OR by producing a negative covid test within 72 hours of leaving.”

   Bound to speed up the spread of Covid but I expect the government decided it was the lesser of two evils. Telling a whole bunch of people they couldn’t leave Auckland when everyone else could would have proved too problematic.

   • The problem is a time thing, eventually we would all have to have a run through it for our own immune systems to develop antibodies to fight it otherwise we would have to isolate this country from the rest of the world forever, its something China is yet to face up to as well. The vaccine on offer is just so we get less of a kick when we get it.

     • Mark, yes true. Buts that’s not how it was sold to us. The ever shifting goalposts. Reinforcing long term effects unknown.

7. Except that the policy is illogical.
   The science appears to be indicating strongly that vaccinated people can just as easily catch and transmit Covid-19 as unvaccinated people. So if we think testing of asymptomatic people is necessary (which is highly questionable) then we should be testing everyone regardless of vaccination status.
   Requiring testing of only those who are unvaccinated is illogical – and therefore discriminatory.

   If you think these vaccines protect you then you are welcome to get yourself vaccinated.
   If you think these vaccines protect you then you do not need to be concerned with whether I am vaccinated.
   You look after your health and I will look after mine.

   • Ah wrong. If am vaccinated and you are not I can pass on the infection to you and you are likely to be hospitalized and have life long major organ damage. So yeah of course vaccinated people really really want to make their unvaccinated acquaintances seriously ill.! And wreck the health system with a flood of seriously ill people who could have so easily have prevented themselves from becoming ill with Covid.

     • I responded to your point – but it is not appearing.

     • It seems someone is imposing their views on this conversation by hiding certain comments and replies. The people who think everything is ok may want to think about that means.

   • Darryl, exactly. It doesn’t get more simple than that.

   • “The science appears to be indicating strongly that vaccinated people can just as easily catch and transmit Covid-19 as unvaccinated people. ”

     Citation please.

     • Yes I’ be very keen to see where this science comes from also?

       • I did post an answer to the citation request. I do not know how the comments in this site are being moderated, but hopefully it is just a timing issue so I don’t want to unfairly accuse them of censorship. If it doesn’t show up I will try again.

         • I probably sent the same link Darryl, with the same result. It is odd that they will print the query but not the material that matters. I suppose that it can remain a possibility that the important message was accidentally lost in the system. I have not had any success reposting comments or links that were censored .
           It does indeed convey a more significant overall message than anything.
           D J S

   • in a perfect world if NZ had the resources i’d agree 100percent

     interesting note saw a vid of I think a singaporian(but don’t hold me to that) kid doing the stick up the nose himself as part of his school day with a nifty kit of swab and reagent packaged together…interesting

     though it wouldn’t curtail the entitled PRO-COVID liars amongst us.

   • wrong. Science shows the vaccine protects from catching, and if infected, reduces the chance of spreading. They are separate. You are spreading lies.

8. “He waka eke noa.”

   This comes with a list of exceptions. Mainly those people or groups that do not comply or agree to the edict.

   Another wishy washy Labour campaign slogan.

   From a mighty 56% popularity leadership and government approval rating no so long ago has now plummeted to a 40%-39% rating in a string of polls recently.

   So if this is still about a team of five million, what has happened to the 16% who’ve changed their mind?

9. The problem is the unvaccinated will be taking up health resources that other’s can’t access when they get Covid. And for long periods of time.

   The mentality of the unvaccinated is that when they get sick and die, it’s someone else fault aka the media that didn’t mention that the family was unvaccinated (according to TDB poster, may or may not be true but seemed credible) instead media spreads disinformation by blaming others (health system, first responders) for their father’s death. https://www.newstalkzb.co.nz/news/covid-19/covid-19-delta-outbreak-glen-eden-father-of-seven-dies-at-home-daughter-says-he-tried-to-get-help/ and now will be a complaint that will need to be investigated, taking up resources, etc.

   Many articles now about gang violence, who the woke support so much and gang violence seems to be escalating with all the woke love and enablement.

   Sadly the woke, have created this sense of entitlement and individualism in those who put others at risk, whether through violence, drug smuggling or anti vaccination stance.

   NZ woke helps and affirms and enables those harming others, while ignoring victims, the opposite of a decent society.

   Normal people can’t stand it any more, and leaving NZ to get real wages, something that many unions seem to have given up on and going into social welfare payments for non workers instead (growing market).

   • The problem is the unvaccinated will be taking up health resources that other’s can’t access when they get Covid. And for long periods of time.

     Just like those who smoke, are obese and play sport that damages them, have car accidents.

     So what is your point.

     • You can’t ignore the unvaxxed and think that it is just their problem if they get Covid, because it affects everyone else. Think of the west auckland case with Covid when the man gushed blood as he died, not so good for the first responders….. Long Covid will take up hospital beds and more disability benefits.

       Likewise obesity is a growing issue (1 in 4) but takeaways are the new normal, so seems to be being encouraged in NZ with hospitality joined at the hip to politicians donations and lobbyists. Most dangerous sports at least have some health benefits like exercise… although those that are dangerous and don’t involve exercise are a problem.

       I don’t know what the answer is, but some people seem to think that the unvaxxed will die of Covid and the problem will go away, after each case taking up weeks in ICU for example or long Covid, means other people don’t have access to ICU health care for other illnesses and there will be an increase of those who don’t fully recover indefinitely.

   • Your comment was interesting because you obviously understand the problem of wokeness. But you don’t seem to have connected it to what is going on. The entire policy framework of our government and mainstream media narrative is riddled with the wokeness, safety-ism, paternalism and a bunch of other isms. Wokeness involves entitlement – I agree. But not individualism. If you know the intellectual background of wokeness you will know that wokeness is antithetical to individualism.

     If you really are unhappy with how wokeness is impacting society then you might want to re-think which side of the Covid debate you want to be on.

     A lot of people who are critical of the government policies and mainstream narrative were already tired of the wokeness before Covid came along, so they decided early on to stop drinking from the firehouse of mainstream media hysteria and find credible alternative sources – which they did. I strongly recommend you look at what these many highly qualified and experienced scientists and doctors around the world are saying about what is happening. You won’t regret it.

     • I think wokeness is very similar to individualism. AKA many woke are only interested in themselves, their rights etc. The far left and far right are increasingly very similar.

       • I agree that there probably is an underlying selfishness in wokeness – self-absorption seems to be prevalent. But philosophically wokeness is about groups – oppressed, oppressor, black, white, etc. They view rights as group rights. Yes you are an individual but your “identify” comes from the groups to which you belong, and those groups define you.
         Do you know James Lindsay? His New Discourses podcast is fascinating.

       • I agree that there probably is an underlying selfishness in wokeness – I would call that self-absorption though rather than belief in individualism. But philosophically wokeness is about groups – oppressed, oppressor, black, white, etc. They view rights as group rights. Yes you are an individual but your “identify” comes from the groups to which you belong, and those groups define you.
         Do you know James Lindsay? His New Discourses podcast is fascinating.

       • Not sure what is going on here. But some of my comments are appearing and some aren’t. Seems a bit random.

10. Today’s covid case in Palmerston North: “The player had tested negative on Monday and went to club training at the Manawatū Cricket Association’s indoor training facility on Tuesday night, then felt unwell on Wednesday, had another test and it came back positive…”

    So can we really depend on a test within 72 hours of travelling, teaching, or other? When did this person become infective?

    • at best testing can only be ‘rule of thumb’ but better than nothing..it ain’t a perfect world

11. Comparing the right, of those who claim to be safe, to leave Auckland with the right to employment, is trying to compare unlike situations. The latter ignores the right of an employer to refuse employment to someone who may be unsafe.

    • I agree mikesh, John M is grasping at straws by trying to compare apples with rocks.

12. The conditions set by the New Zealand government for passage out of or in to Tamaki makaurau from 15 December will be unenforceable. It will end in a farce if allowed to proceed as planned.
    John does have “a foot in both camps” because he is hoping against hope that the government will formulate a policy on Covid which is morally acceptable and yet makes practical sense. Little chance of that I am afraid.
    For a more comprehensive explanation of why Jacinda’s Covid strategy will be a socially divisive fiasco I suggest you see “Vaccine mandates: Why they are wrong” at http://www.republican.co.nz

13. Its the unvaccinated who will spread this the most, every opportunity has been provided to get a vaccine up to this point, if they havent then tough bloody luck, their ignorance is whats going to overwhelm the healthcare system the 90% also use, we want to use it for emergencies but instead all the staff will be dealing with the ignorant barstards who didnt bother.

    Just yesterday was a succinct article on the very issue thats driving the level of BS in this world, Its how Facebook software works to reinforce what you search or seek out, delivers whatever content you want because they make money from it.
    https://www.stuff.co.nz/opinion/127001223/the-internet-too-much-of-a-bad-thing?fbclid=IwAR272ung-VBJREhT2StRrE7t-x-Y_wYpdba6Wq9WqCW_NLRiU0BNk2ZO7A8

    All I can say really is all you bloody anti vaxers, when delta catches up with you and it will, you’re going to get really ill and maybe die, but dont you dare come crying on social media about how bad you had it, it was your own bloody fault.

    • All I can say really is all you bloody anti vaxers, when delta catches up with you and it will, you’re going to get really ill and maybe die, but dont you dare come crying on social media about how bad you had it, it was your own bloody fault.

      Above is the sort of comment I loathe, what you are saying is that you know everything and then you are quite abusive to those who have opted not to have the vaccination. For anyone to suggest that the all the people who have made a personal decision not to have the vax are unintelligent conspiracy theory nutters is unhelpful. The lawyers, the teachers, the nurses, the doctors, the midwives…. perfectly capable of all of them to do the research themselves and make the decision not to have the vaccination.

    • Mark, wow. Stuff arguing against Facebook. Very rich. All the information us ‘anti vaxxers’ need is on government websites ie. Medsafe. and listening to Stanford medical professors, for example. But hey man, keep getting your misinformation from journalists.

14. This has got very little to do with anything but to test compliance to government edicts. It is utter bullshit and everyone knows it. Labour can not lose Auckland, and so it lets it go free, spreading the plague like there is no tomorrow because they are due a holiday somewhere. This is just how pathetic this government is.

15. Thank you John for having wisdom in the face of unreason. And the bravery to express it.

16. You are talking to an idiot so do not waste your time . They do their research with one finger on Google and type in why is it not a good idea to get vaxed and surprise surprise it comes up with cases.

17. If the dangerous covid disease is to be knocked on the head like polio and other vaccine cured diseases then 95 -100 % vaccination will be required. Without it, new variants will keep evolving.

    New Zealand babies have been getting vaccinated for measles, mumps rubella, whooping cough, diphtheria, tetanus, chickenpox and teenagers for tuberculosis for generations. Most of the anti-vaxxers will have had these vaccinations and their health is greatly enhanced from having them. Why is there any drama at all about getting vaccinated? What type of person truly believes they are only free if they can infect other people with a deadly disease. Aids victims who knowingly infect others are sent to prison!

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