2023: The One To Lose

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BRYCE EDWARDS, in this morning’s (10/3/22) edition of his excellent NZ Politics Daily, writes:

“There is still a chance that the Government will back down on Three Waters. If opinion polls continue to narrow between the left and right blocs, then Jacinda Ardern will start to look at what areas of the Government reform programme are eroding public confidence. Three Waters, or at least the co-governance model, is likely to be identified as a roadblock to re-election in 2023.”

But, a back-down on Three Waters could only eventuate following a direct and successful attack upon the largest and most powerful faction in the Labour Caucus – the Māori Caucus. Given the political beliefs of most of Labour’s non-Māori caucus members, however, is such an attack even conceivable? It would represent not only a rejection of the orthodox interpretation of te Tiriti o Waitangi, along with the co-governance model it is said to mandate, but also the wholesale repudiation of the only political principles the current generation of Labour MPs take seriously.

Now the cynics might chuckle and point to the number of sitting MPs who stand to lose their seats if Labour’s fast-falling level of electoral support is not arrested. Having just entered Parliament, are these politicians really prepared to be swept out of it on the highly contentious proposition that co-governance really is the wave of the future?

Isn’t it more likely that these MPs will suddenly discover that co-governance formed no part of Labour’s 2020 Election Manifesto? Or, that co-governance is full of constitutional fish-hooks that the likes of Nanaia Mahuta and Willie Jackson have not been entirely up-front about? Some may even decide to read He Puapua from start to finish, and end up wondering how the Labour Cabinet could just wave it through.

On the other hand, nobody has ever gone broke betting on the propensity of white liberals to fold like tents when subjected to an uncompromising assault by people of colour. Are Labour’s current crop of luvvies really tough enough to face down the bitter accusations of racism and colonialist betrayal which would undoubtedly be hurled at them by the Māori Caucus’s staunchest spokespeople?

Is Jacinda?

And are the Non-Māori majority of the Labour Caucus really willing to call the Māori Caucus’s bluff if it threatens to refuse the Whip? Could the Labour leadership be sure of holding on to at least three or four of Willie Jackson’s team in the event of a walkout? (Always assuming that the Greens do not walk away from their agreement with the Labour Government in solidarity with its Māori members.)

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It is very hard to see how scrapping co-governance and provoking a walkout of Labour’s Māori caucus could happen without provoking a snap election. With the Greens and the Māori Party tearing into Labour’s left-flank, it is even harder to see any other outcome apart from a resounding National/Act victory. Which would, of course, mean the scrapping of Three Waters and co-governance.

Better, perhaps, to go down with the Tino Rangatiratanga flag flying? Paradoxically, going to the country on a platform of constitutional and cultural transformation – and getting thrashed – could well be the best way of keeping Labour and the Greens in the long-term political game.

Because, one thing is for certain: the genie of co-governance is well and truly out of its bottle and it is doubtful whether the New Zealand state any longer possesses either the strength or the will to stuff it back in. Were a right-wing government foolish enough to try, the resulting convulsions in the body politic would make the recent dyspepsia manifested in Parliament Grounds look like a delegation of Plunket mums.

This time the wretched refuse of the colonial capitalist economy would not attract the scorn of middle-class Pakeha social-liberals. This time they would be pitching their tents right alongside them. This time the New Zealand ensign flying alongside the Tino Rangatiratanga flag would not be at all confusing. This time it would be: “One flag for tauiwi; one flag for tangata whenua; and te Tiriti over all.” This time Labour and the Greens would not be scorning the occupation. This time they’d be taking the demands of the protesters directly to the floor of the House of Representatives. This time they would not be speaking for the state. This time they would be speaking for the future.

There was a time – not so very long ago – when Bryce Edwards’ speculation about Labour stepping away from Three Waters and co-governance would have represented nothing more nor less than the conventional wisdom. But, times have changed. Aotearoa-New Zealand faces unprecedented challenges, and it is becoming clearer with every passing year that our current constitutional arrangements are unlikely to prove equal to the task of meeting them.

As Bryce himself notes:

“The alternative is that the Government gets out and actually sells the reforms to the public. This is what has been sorely lacking (beyond the infamous [Three Waters] propaganda ad campaign). But that will require more than disparaging co-governance critics whose arguments are resonating widely with the public.”

Indeed it will. And, if Labour has retained even a shred of historical consciousness, it will go the electorate with more than just Three Waters on the bill-of-sale. It should present the voters with a bold and radical vision of their country’s future. A future founded on a political economy of equity and justice. A future in which everyone can win, and where losing isn’t predetermined by the colour of your skin. Labour and the Greens will lose, naturally. But, with the economy tanking, and the international situation going from bad to worse, the 2023 General Election looks more-and-more like the election the parties of the future need to lose.

The vital objective should be to win the votes of the young. The challenges that loom will be theirs to meet and overcome. Above all, Labour should not allow itself to be spooked by a solidification of frightened conservatism among the over-60s. Let the dead bury their dead.

The trick, in these circumstances, is to make sure that you leave office with a bang – not a whimper. With great things still left to do. In the immortal words of Scarlet O’Hara inGone With The Wind: “Tomorrow is another day.”

Let the Right inherit the whirlwind that’s coming.

 

 

118 COMMENTS

  1. “A future in which everyone can win, and where losing isn’t predetermined by the colour of your skin”
    And their proposed solution is to institutionalise governance on the basis of race, to make ethnicity a political category?
    Of course there’s zero chance of getting the people to go along with that mad idea, an idea so bad you have to wonder about the sanity of anyone supporting it.

  2. The Blairite is gone. Let’s be fair the May jaunt to the States is a glorified job interview and she’ll fit better into an all care no responsibility role at the UN or any of those mega NGOs. That will mean poor man’s Gordon Brown will be the PM and he is nothing but a political animal with an ego the size of the Great Wall of China. He won’t go down without a fight and anything is on the table.

    The next 12 months will when all the covid chickens come home to roost – cost of living, crime, gangs, bureaucratic bungling, inflation, business failure etc. Unless a unicorn starts to grow out of Ardern’s ass the game is up.

    But fear not. National under Luxon is labourlite anyway and will be loathed to upset the apple cart. With Act falling away their influence will be restricted to a couple of ministries and the status quo will exist. Uncle Fester will learn Te Reo and the tribal corporate bandwagon will get on board – just like they did with Key.

    Nothing changes but the colour. That’s what Hobbits like.

      • Yes they are – did they shit can Kiwirail, Kiwibank or working for families. No. Will they roll back the wokeborg infection of New Zimbabwe – No.

        Te Aro Luxon will get very fluent with Te Reo.

        National – “we are less shite than Labour”

        • I really don’t give a rats about woke, I mean yeah it’s a stupid concept but so many other things need fixing that to be frank it’s irrelevant to all but the bourgoise and the rabid right….the rest of NZ would be happy with a lower cost of living.

    • You think Ardern is going to work for the UN ? Lol she’s not Helen Clark. She’s a coms expert.

      She’ll go private sector, move to the states in the states where they love her and where all her celeb and political and media mates are and start up a PR consultancy firm and make mega, mega bucks she’ll make so much cash she’ll make John Key look like a peseant.

      Private sector for sure. If she loses next year she’ll only be 43 if she wins she’ll only be 45-46 when she retires from parliament.

      She’s not going to the UN. That’s Helen Clarks dream. It’s a useless ineffectual organization and it’s a waste of time trying to climb the UN.

      The Money is in consultancy,coms pr for her celeb mates, for centerist political parties around the world, for green wash for corporations.

      She’s not going to stay in politics after this, she’ll leave NZ and never look back like any sane kiwi should do.

      Maybe after a decade of private sector she’ll go run the WTO for 5 years but UN ? No way Jose

  3. Re Three Waters He Puapua

    I don’t know why everyone is getting so excited about this Three Waters, we have big problems with our water quality here in NZ. Local Councils don’t have the resources to fix the water quality problems and often squander the money they do have on other Pet Projects.

    Not a big deal as far as I am concerned.

    • It’s a big deal to the tax payers who paid for and own the assets that the Gov wants to give 50% of to tribal entities who aren’t part of the democratic system of NZ in that we can’t all vote for them

        • the gameplan is give control to councils, underfund the councils soooo cash strapped councils sell said assets to your buddies…job done and dusted

      • Maori are tax payers and rate payers, tribal elites you say sounds like you are being a tad racist and over the top cynical. And you don’t like us getting any share or rights to important resources like water, yet we do have rights by the way who gave the farmers the rights to the waterways aye!

    • Ngungukai
      Yes, correct, lack of local resources. All that’s required is to fix the problems with money and relevant experts – paid by central govt. Why even bring trillion dollar PR campaigns, scaremongering, asset grabbing and weird race quota governance/ownership into it???? If eg. Hawkes Bay need 50 million in repairs and upgrades, just fucking do it Labour! It’s just another job on the list and that’s it! Call someone, put the order in and pay for it. Get it done, tick it off. Everything with Labour is always so fucking complicated and full of other agendas, except for the one that matters, and that is to get the job done. Only they know how turn every single job into a complete clusterfuck – by adding 900 political layers into the simplest project. In the real world, the aim of any efficiently run project is to strip layers OUT not to add them in!

    • Ngungukai Govt wants to give 50% to 11% of the population. There are no guarantees that ownership of the water, an increasingly valuable global commodity, won’t then be sold off- shore.

    • I agree Ngungukai. It was broken and needed fixing. The howling from the right ad nausea is proof that this is a winner. And better still it’s still owned by the state and not privatized like National did with the power cos even after a referendum held was corruptly ignored by Key.

    • Then you don’t understand the proposal.
      Whangarei District Councils have always managed the water supply well . No Health issues and no debt.
      Just one example of competent local government. There are more. Hawkes Bay councils by working together across their region solved their pollution issues in one year!.
      3 waters is bullshit. It requires the theft of publicly owned assets already paid for being used as assets by a national entity which is not democratic so that entity can borrow billions to enslave us in unnecessary debt for years to come so another layer of bureaucracy can be created ( and then staffed by migrants )to charge us high rates for water use.I own my own water supply and there is no way I am paying a central authority for that which is already mine. What’s so hard to understand about that?

        • No Shona’s comment is not bullshit. It’s sharp and pragmatic. Bert, just look at the polls and the digest the fact that Mahuta will he have to be taken off that project. It’s toxic as hell now so she has to be reshuffled. Or they have to drop it altogether as another FAIL. You know it, Bryce Edwards suggested it, so it would be very impressive if once in while you would just say ‘Yep…Labour fucked that one up’. And boy have they fucked it up. How can a good concept like fixing broken water supply be so fucked up before it even hits the ground. As I said, only Labour know how to do that, by inserting 900 layers of PR, hidden agenda and woke political crap into a simple process. Here’s another one: treasury say the AKL train thing may double to 30 billion…of course, what else? It’s a gonner now. Shona any good ‘bullshit’ comment on that one for our No1 Jacinda Fan here?

          • Troll German, you’re at it again. Oh Jacinda’s no 1 anti fan is back. Krauty you must be in a muck lather in the shower right now. The first poll in 5 years going your way. You will never support any progressive left wing policy, I suggest you and Shona get a room and celebrate the end result of years of neoliberal politics.
            Nah I’m actually done with you, you have a cognitive deficit, have no ability to debate, you are so much of a lost cause, I believe you were dropped on your head as a baby.
            If your able read the 3 waters document, but I suggest you’re a lazy cunt and believe you know better . Tell me what it says on page three section 8a and then swallow the dead rat.
            Now, name every one of those 900 PR layers you proclaim or otherwise stop trolling? I’m waiting? As I said bullshit.

            • Bully boy Bert. Can I call you bully boy Bert? Do you talk to your colleagues or family like that?
              So obvious that in your case what you say, is what you are. Can’t think, no logic and can’t debate.

      • Hawkes Bay where people died and many got bacterial illnesses from their councils contaminated water

    • We don’t have a big problem though Ngungukai, despite the propaganda you’ve seen: second equal highest standard of drinking water in the world.
      The “fourth waters” (rivers, lakes, seas and ground water) are outside the purview of these changes if that’s what you’re concerned about. Regardless, is this the best way to address such concerns as there are? What’s the point of giving iwi 50% control of urban waste, drinking and storm water. Both of those questions remain unanswered and the suspicion grows that this is not really about water at all.

    • Tell that to the rabbid Pakeha who have bloody cheek to say we are stealing the water, this is the water they said nobody owns cause you can’t own the water it belongs to all of us. Rein in the water bottling by foreign countries now since the council want control put up or shut up.

      • Council have sold of vaste quantities of water in the Bay of Plenty and Canterbury to OFF Shore Chinese Bottling Companies for the cost of the Resource Consent.

        Chinese Bottlers have the rights to the Aquifiers at the Old Sheep & Beef Freezing Works at Belfast Christchurch and have established a new Export Bottling Plant. In Whakatane they have bought the Bottling Plant at Otakiri Spring Waters near Edgecumbe which draws water out of the Aquifier under the Rangtakei Plains. The Otakiri Springs was New Zealand’s biggest Water Bottling Plant 25 years ago, not sure how big it is now and how much water it is drawing off a day,

      • It’s not the water, it’s the infrastructure that Mahuta wants to control thereby awarding her cronies an effective monopoly through which they can extract revenue and hide behind an opaque and deliberately complex management structure so the poor rate payers cannot influence decisions or force change.

        • People didn’t seem to care about the infrastructure when joh keys sold our power companies to bring down power costs. He literally destroyed NZ post then sold shares in Air NZ but in NZ you get a knighthood for that.

          • Just like Sir Nichael Fay Richwhite, Sir Ron Brierly, Sir John Key, Sir Bill English shall I go on all involved in the sale of State (taxpayers) Assets for the good of the Country.

          • I cared and I think we should renationalise tomorrow morning, the faux energy market doesn’t work just ask texas or california or the UK….don’t invest because shortage is a profit opportunity.

          • Nobody cared? Lots of us cared, but half the country (and most of NZ’s “journalists”) were in the thrall of NZ’s first “celebrity” PM. Key didn’t privatize power companies to bring down power costs – if privatization did that, we wouldn’t need “winter energy payments”. Neoliberals like Key privatize to reduce government spending, and thus enable tax cuts.

    • That’s just not true – the bulk of water supplied is high quality and well managed. We don’t need this asset grab.

    • We have serious laws already against pollution and everyone is aware of them. Giving a group of racists control of water is bad.

    • What’s wrong with Auckland’s water?
      Drinking it OK. Beaches are mostly pretty good. Rivers could be worse.
      Considering it is a big city and all..
      Jeez compared to some of the beaches and rivers I’ve seen around the world… Pristine!

  4. They should public referendum the shit out of every issue like, forming a Republic, a NZ Constitution, what a new Parliament make up should look like, then the content, the restructuring of NZ Inc.
    Then where the Treaty sits within that.

    Not hard really. It’s just a matter of delivery and not over-egging it.

    But, the big issue that’s fallen off the radar is, climate change and green washing capitalism. What happened with that? Are they none starters too?

    Odds on for an early election. Up pops Winston Peters!

    • And Denny don’t forget the Flag Referendum under John Key and National that was a Big Issue and very nearly got over the line for Big John.

      • Referendums aren’t cheap. Democracy and counting all voters choices aren’t cheap.
        We were respected enough to be asked what we wanted, instead of told. Or an unannounced aw rushed in through urgency.
        I can’t believe so many people voted to keep the colonialist flag. I didn’t.
        Did you?
        I heard some non logical thinkers say it was John Key’s flag. It wasn’t. It was New Zealand’s flag.
        We had a chance to get a better flag and petty haters threw it away.
        The red white and blue option would have kept a link to the past too.

        If you did vote to keep the colonisers’ flag, can you tell us why.?
        I’m curious what the reasons were.

        • Notwithstanding the Flag Referendum was policy for both Labour and National, until National acted on it, suddenly Labour hated it.

          And let’s be fair the $24 million National spent on it would have been over $100 million if Labour had got their hands on it

    • denny we can’t even agree to do the social minded(whether you believe in them or not) just for politeness sake wearing a mask…can you imagine what the debate about individual clauses in any constitution would be like.???? there’d be blood in the gutters and not the metaphorical kind

      • “Oh No! Not the ‘Rivers of Blood…..” G!
        E Powells famous non-speech.

        Mosley’s mob would proud of Herr Ardern!

        Oh well, now the middle class ‘swingers’ will all jump on Luck’s-in magic carpet to milk the Nats for a few bucks. Oh, how those middle-class swingers swing.

        I wonder if they let their woke nazi kids join in or do they let them film it to post on pornohub to make a few bucks?

        You can never trust the middle class(es) to do the right thing for everyone.

        • no den not ‘rivers of blood’ ‘blood in the gutters’ so you can pack that up in your old kit bag…yeah..

  5. “white Liberals”

    “people of colour”

    urgh.

    I miss the good old days when we were working to transcend skin colour and see ourselves as one. Identity politics and CRT wants us to go back to being all divided up on our skin colour

    That’s not winning

    • So the main problem is the gifting of Ownership of the H20 to te tangata whenua, the people of colour ?

        • Council have sold of vaste quantities of water in the Bay of Plenty and Canterbury to OFF Shore Chinese Bottling Companies for the cost of the Resource Consent.

          Chinese Bottlers have the rights to the Aquifiers at the Old Sheep & Beef Freezing Works at Belfast Christchurch and have established a new Export Bottling Plant. In Whakatane they have bought the Bottling Plant at Otakiri Spring Waters near Edgecumbe which draws water out of the Aquifier under the Rangtakei Plains. The Otakiri Springs was New Zealand’s biggest Water Bottling Plant 25 years ago, not sure how big it is now and how much water it is drawing off a day,

        • XstraightXedgeX don’t have a go at me about the terminology “people of colour” you are the one that brought that terminology to the TDB Forum.

      • Doesn’t matter what colour they are it’s the Govt gifting power & control of other people’s assets that’s the problem.

      • Not just the water ,the entire delivery system involved which has been built by everyone in this country. Big picture stuff, being short on detail is a useless ploy to stymie argument against the theft of publicly owned assets. NZ ia a representative democracy NOT an ethno nationalist state.

          • How could she possibly know that?
            Well she can’t plain and simple, the same as those saying Jacinda is taking a post overseas. Until she does it’s either guesswork or wishful thinking.
            If they can’t show me the evidence then either put up or shut the fuck up.

            • Cmon Bertie

              You know the ejection seat button is primed and poor man’s Gordon Brown is getting all hot and bothered by the prospect of achieving his boyhood dream.

              My prediction post the overseas “trade” trips the decision is going to be announced.

              • We’ll put a 20 on it my boy Frankie. But you prove my point. If I say someone will win lotto on Saturday night, we won’t actually know until after the event. If it is your “guess” or I believe” well that is a little different Frankie.
                However she may well do a Key and that was, do a runner before being unceremoniously dumped.

                • Expanding the breeding Program while still in Office, shit that will get all the haters fired up again wont it ?

                  How dare she have another baby while in Office and running the Country.

                  • Nah it was the 20 bucks she gave them that they put into the pokies gagarin, fuck she can’t do everything for them son.

                    • c’mon bert give 20 with one hand dedust it from other benefits isn’t even trying it’s premeditated cruelty and an attempt to deceive the wider public, something they knew very well as they sat round the cabinet table cooking up that particular scam….if she had tried I’d be the first to praise her but she didn’t zero for effort.

        • It’s not about ‘ownership’. It’s about control.

          If you have the absolute authority ‘over something’ you then control it. You can determine the use, the users, the type of activities it’s used for etc …

          That’s why they’re only offering chump change for the entity. A Paul Majurey tactic.

          • Yeah Paul Majurey, he controls a lot.
            I’m pretty impressed that he manages to control 257 companies or whatever it is. See companies office. Co. NZ.
            Including the one with a Council supplied budget of $30M / year to cut down healthy mature trees.

            Wonder if they still collected their pay for the last two years with little to no tree chopping activity going on…
            Aye?

      • Nah. ‘We’ all know how valuable it is as a commodity.

        In Tamaki Makaurau. There is a body set up as part of a Treaty Settlement. The Tamaki Collective Treaty Settlement. A group of iwi within that collective have ‘rights’ to the Hunua dams. Ssssh! Don’t tell anybody.

        I did suggest putting a 0.25 cent surcharge on every litre of water supplied to Auckland that consumes around 320m per day. But somehow that was too far fetched back then.
        We’d be rich by now! But nah, the elites didn’t like that idea then. I wonder if their opinion on that idea has changed?

      • Ngungukai
        Interesting. Probably not about colour (do you want it to be?). Probably more about majority and minority….the governance proportions are wrong. Kiwis have this certain sense of fairness and this does not seem fair to them I suspect. More so, it’s pretty clear that we do not like to be ‘socially engineered’ by dishonest politicians with hidden agendas. And let’s be honest Mahuta and Ardern are pretty sneaky with 3 Waters! Why a 4 million dollar insulting scare campaign? And it’s happening a lot with Labour. Same story now with road to zero – save the fucking huge PR money and just change the speed if you want. And take that CCCFA lending law. Labour should have kept their fucking noses out of the banking business. Banks are big and ugly enough to decide who they lend money to. They certainly are better with money than this govt!!! Backfiring big time and so it should. Labour look like real tossers to all those frustrated first homers…they know under National they will be able to borrow money.

        • “Labour look like real tossers to all those frustrated first homers…they know under National they will be able to borrow money.

          Wow just wow,, Nationals no one fanboy club, obviously not old enough to be around during the ponytail years, dirty politics, Aaron Gilmore, Hamish Walker, Andrew Falloon, Judith Collins, Jamie Lee Ross, Simon Bridges, Maggie Bully Barry, Todd Barclay, Michelle Bog etc etc etc.

          Yes Krauty, you’re in elite company but as the saying goes, ” you lie down with dogs…”

          I’m off to buy a house over the weekend thank’s to Labours latest housing changes. Fantastic change and listening to The People.

          • Wow just wow like outrage totally wow selfie in the mirror wow outrage post on Twitter wow just wow look at Bertie collecting likes just wow. Happy 13th birthday. You’re a teenager now.

            • Thankyou coming from a 3 year old that means a lot. Either a 3 year old or a 40 year old retard the Sour Kraut fits the bill.

          • yup the nats will let them borrow but in a low wage economy what will the nats do when those inflated mortgages can’t be serviced..oh well that’s the market I guess…cynically leading their base into foreclosure for profit….HUZZAH

    • Try walking a mile in their shoes XXX
      It’s not “nice” when you are in an obvious minority group and get trampled all over by a “democratic” arsehole majority day after day, week after week and year after year.

    • Yes colonizers you have everything yet you always want more never satisfied and most of you are not Maori so have no idea wat it feels like to be treated like a second calls citizen. Assimilation is your game and many of you have no shame but you are quick to blame. We have proprietary rights but many of you don’t care cause you are greedy, selfish and don’t want to hear you just want more and more than your fair share.

  6. Co-governance is only popular with a minority who hope to gain power and resources from it. The majority are not keen at all.

    Anyone trying to force co gov onto the country will never succeed

  7. The Nats would love Labour to go the electorate with a bold and radical vision of this nation’s future.

    Firstly it would scare the hell out of the majority, even those who like Ardern personally.
    Secondly, given the serial incompetence of Labour Ministers, the voters who liked the vision couldn’t trust them to deliver it.

  8. indeed more lollies for the iwiocracy won’t help the maori in the street one little bit…but hey the nobility will all get new 4 wheel drives so kewlllllll.

  9. A good blogpost on 3 waters is here: http://karldufresne.blogspot.com/

    “ Throughout this exercise, a persistent issue has been lack of transparency. At every step along the way, the government has seemed determined to (pardon the pun) muddy the waters.

    A good example is the diagram purporting to show how the governance of Three Waters will work, which is a triumph of obfuscation. I defy anyone to make sense of it. There has to be a reason why it’s so convoluted, and I believe that reason is to disguise where true power and control will reside.

    The public still has no idea who came up with the idea of four regional “water service entities” – whose territories just happened to be aligned with tribal boundaries – or what the rationale was. That part of the exercise appears to have taken place out of the public view. It emerged fully formed, without public consultation.

    In place of transparency, the government has tried hyperbole, disinformation and scaremongering – witness the infantile and dishonest “public information and education campaign” put together by advertising agency FCB New Zealand (to its everlasting shame) at a cost to the taxpayer of $4 million. The aim was to frighten New Zealanders into thinking our water infrastructure is in a parlous state and thus soften us up for the hijacking of council-owned assets and the removal of democratic accountability mechanisms.”

    • A right wing blogger you follow, someone whom dismisses maoridom and socialist views and you label it a good blogpost? It’s one view, one that you “like”.
      Once again you fall under the right wing spell of Neoliberalism, if something is broke( water infrastructure) sell it to the highest bidder.
      A better article can be seen here …note ” the public need to know the truth about water”

      https://www.scoop.co.nz/stories/AK2110/S00549/local-leaders-welcome-3-waters-decision.htm

      • Not addressing the issues in the quote, I see, just trying to cancel the author because you don’t like them?
        Put my mind at ease on the points he raises.

        • No it’s all good but as I pointed out it’s a right wing narrative, what the fuck do you think he was going to say? “The aim was to ease New Zealanders minds”
          Doesn’t alter my mind that his post sits better on Whaleoil and even more so it’s bias, because you support it.

          “I am pleased the Government has stepped up and made this decision as we owe residents and ratepayers the truth – and the truth is, without reform, the Council does not have the resources or borrowing capacity to deliver the 3 Waters to an acceptable standard. The cost of doing so is in the billions”

          I now you don’t do the truth, your posts are all proof of that.

  10. Ngungukai – I respect your contributions but hope you will take the time to be better informed.
    A link to the pdf He Puapua report.
    https://www.scribd.com/document/507823890/He-Puapua-report

    This article is by a University professor at Auckland Uni. Short read.
    https://www.newshub.co.nz/home/politics/2021/06/opinion-ethno-nationalism-or-democratic-nationalism-which-way-ahead-for-new-zealand.html

    I don’t expect you will read the full 3 Waters cabinet paper but the information is there.
    Original cabinet paper since updated with very clumsy committee arrangements and undecided process of Iwi selection.
    https://www.dia.govt.nz/diawebsite.nsf/Files/Three-waters-reform-programme/$file/cabinet-paper-two-and-minute-designing-the-new-three-waters-service-delivery-entities-30-june-2021.002.pdf
    Three waters could be legislated with ring fencing of council water rates to provide water services instead of being siphoned off for vanity projects such as sports arenas. Where there is a shortfall government could provide as required under appropriate legislation.

    We can choose to have one country for all New Zealanders or for the other option read the Auckland Uni article.
    At the very LEAST this should be being widely discussed in Parliament and across the long white land. That it isn’t could be called subterfuge or legislation by stealth. Where is the opposition?

  11. CT – your articles are hugely helpful to us. Could I humbly suggest that you put links to He Puapua and the 3 Waters cabinet papers so that readers can quickly see for themselves what is writ.
    I was at a function recently and a man I spoke with was so much for 3 Waters as his only viewpoint was the MSM/propaganda one. I suggested he educate himself by reading a little more widely. He pushed back by basically saying there was no argument to be had!
    So thanks for helping to educate the masses, those without blinkers anyway.

  12. Yes colonizers you have everything yet you always want more never satisfied and most of you are not Maori so have no idea wat it feels like to be treated like a second calls citizen. Assimilation is your game and many of you have no shame but you are quick to blame. We have proprietary rights but many of you don’t care cause you are greedy, selfish and don’t want to hear you just want more and more than your fair share.

    • Rmeber when Auckland had water shortages a 2 or 3 years ago?
      Auckland wanted more water from the Waikato. Tainui said no.
      Pretty selfish I thought. Was that selfish of them?
      There were headlines of Tainui asking for $1 Billion for the water.. Was that not greedy?

      I’ll post links if I can find them…

    • Here you are, $20million a day, so we can have water to drink.
      Thankyou for the offer, not greedy or selfish people.

    • Ngai Tahu – biggest business in the South Island.
      https://www.nzherald.co.nz/kahu/the-big-read-iwi-build-a-6b-empire-of-assests/QJCETP6DMUWGMWALHUNPAPMTLQ/

      Good on them, success.

      But please don’t lie to us low wage workers just trying to educate our kids about how hard done by Maori are nowadays.
      Maybe you are, but jeez, look around. Who drove the white Bentley convertible to day care? Oh, Iwi leader…

      Just give up the spin BS.
      Do you see people with very, very easy jobs on great pay?
      Things have changed.

      • Alan M
        You have such a chip on your shoulder. It probably is a smaller one than Maori rightly have. If pakeha can work with Maori so that the chips are turned into mulch and
        help to grow some solid healthy tane mahutas. How can you advance yourself without whinging too much is the task. Whinging is fair enough and a bit is healthy I think, but then get over it and get on eh.

    • you know what my ancestors got from colonisation? wanna know? generations of backbreaking manual labour and 2 world wars living in a british urban shithole…so yeah I feel the ‘white priviledge’ coursing through my veins–NOT
      ….just because your oppressors happened to be white doesn’t mean all white people are oppressors trust me in the C19/early 20 the white urban working class had as much shit to deal with as any maori.

  13. Im one of Chris’ buried dead, an over 60 like him. For the life left in me there is no way that a constitutional path that leads to power sharing with a small minority will be accepted by the majority, whatever their age. It is a recipe for sectarian conflict. And for the death of Labour if they proceed.

    What I think is going on is that the current socio economic system has institutionised failure / disadvantage of tangata whenua. Attempts to change this have all failed. He Puapua is merely the latest, the end result will only be a Maori aristocracy fighting to hold their gains from their own people. Not exactly a recipe for economic or social emancipation.

    Then theres the massive immigrant population of the last thirty years who came expecting democracy, how will they vote?

    Chris may be right that constitutionally we are well on this path, lead by public servants, judges, lawyers, advocates etc. That wont make it stick, only popular mandate will. To think otherwise invites conflict.

  14. Chris, I agree that your proposal is strategically correct for future Labour. But here is the thing that I cant reconcile:

    Lets say in 20 yrs time 80% of the population is non Maori, yadda, yadda intermarriage, liberal ideas taught at school, growing Maori population. What you’re saying is that the 80 % or even 70% if we take polynesians out. Are going to say, I believe we should vote against democracy and my own self interest to run our country as a divided ethno state.

    I can see how views can change especially with decent consultation but human nature is what it is. Those with power will fight to keep it especially if you consider the background of our now large economic debt, a world in a financial meltdown that is picked to last 7 – 10 years and our crumbling infrastructure and services. Add on top of that the horrific way in which this government has thrown money at Maori with no clear result (Not inferring the throwing of the money is wrong but we all know it hasnt trickled down) and I think that many of those middle class marxists currently supporting the left will migrate right out of self interest.

    Things really need to change but co-governance isnt the answer. As I see it, NZ can only get worse across all or most measures. National will likely win in 2023 and will be in for between 10 and 20 years, the country will continue its decline and division until things implode and substantial change is forced upon it.

  15. Chris, I agree that your proposal is strategically correct for future Labour. But here is the thing that I cant reconcile:

    Lets say in 20 yrs time 80% of the population is non Maori, yadda, yadda intermarriage, liberal ideas taught at school, growing Maori population. What you’re saying is that the 80 % or even 70% if we take polynesians out. Are going to say, I believe we should vote against democracy and my own self interest to run our country as a divided ethno state.

    I can see how views can change especially with decent consultation but human nature is what it is. Those with power will fight to keep it especially if you consider the background of our now large economic debt, a world in a financial meltdown that is picked to last 7 – 10 years and our crumbling infrastructure and services. Add on top of that the horrific way in which this government has thrown money at Maori with no clear result (Not inferring the throwing of the money is wrong but we all know it hasnt trickled down) and I think that many of those middle class marxists currently supporting the left will migrate right out of self interest.

    Things really need to change but co-governance isnt the answer. As I see it, NZ can only get worse across all or most measures. National will likely win in 2023 and will be in for between 10 and 20 years, the country will continue its decline and division until things implode and substantial change is forced upon it.

  16. Call us colonisers but we are all settlers here. If anyone wants to feel like a second class citizen feel free to put yourself down. Everyone has an opportunity to raise themselves from the lower economic class. It’s a class issue not race. However, a lot comes down to parents helping to educate and prepare kids for the opportunities out there.
    Alcohol holds back so many families. It’s also recognised as a large contributor to our suicide rate.
    One more thing this government is promoting by neglecting to do anything about the licensing laws which have become more and more liberal.

    • …we are all settlers here…

      In the broadest sense you’re right. But is a matter of perspective. And of history. Some settlers arrived a long time ago, when the land was 80% forested and full of moa (nine kinds of moa no less). Other settlers arrived later, and by hook or by crook, appropriated most of the land and cut down most of the forest (only the bones of the moa remained but I suspect those second wave of settlers didn’t even know about the bounty that greeted their predecessors). So, perspective and history is important.

      … It’s a class issue not race…a lot comes down to parents helping to educate and prepare kids for the opportunities out there…

      On this I’m a little more sympathetic. Only because it is my experience. I grew up paheka in a predominately Maori community. My dad was a dairy farmer on land that was once in tribal ownership, on the north-eastern slopes of Ruapekapeka. Testament to the land grab of the colonists, the second wave of settlers to this fine and adundant land, were the cannon balls he found when clearing some of the land, that is chopping down the manuka. As a third-wave settler his part in getting hold the land was minimal – it was a ‘grant’ to WW1 veterans (his brother) at nominal rates. We weren’t wealthy – and I believe in the beginning, by today’s standards, rather threadbare but at least in Marxist terms they owned the means of production, the land they farmed. Which was more than many of the local Maori, who once walked proud on the whenua they were spiritually inseperable from. Wealthy we were not but in the bigger picture ‘privileged’ by history. We moved when I was still young. That ‘privilege’ – and my father’s sweat – bought a freehold property in the city. So yep, a lot comes down to parents helping to educate and prepare kids for the opportunities out there. It worked for me. A stable up-bringing. The first in my extended family to earn a degree. And opportunities around the world. But there is more to it, isn’t there. You might argue that everyone has the same opportunity. But it isn’t quite a level playing field, is it.

      But you’re right about alcohol Magit. Out of control a fucking scourge. Not my own father’s experience but to some extent my own.

      And just so you know I’m not picking on you Magit, like your ideas on 3 Waters. Follow the paper trail, eh. Develop an informed opinion. I’ll take that advice as I tend to sit on the fence on some issues, not knowing which way to turn, not fully understanding the guts of it all. I suspect there are more than two ways to look at it, and the wider issue of co-governance. My old sociology prof, Dave Bedgegood, held there were four ways of looking at issues here in NZ: the conservative view, the liberal, the radical (by that he meant the views of tangata whenua, of the first settlers) and bless his Red soul, the Marxist perspective. My gut feeling tells me its history coming back to bite us ‘privileged’ folk in the arse.

      • Bozo – Interesting knowledgeable comments. Among your points the one on alcohol reaches my centre. In thr 60’s we all drank too much – sodical drinking no problem. Now it can’t be afforded and I look at full recycling bins and the money poured away there as another way of the PTB hurting the young, filching their money and giving them no future. Alcohol and government have been hand in pocket for so long. I divorced my partner rather than get dragged down, and now provide the only caring connection in life for this dissolute person. Itis a sneaky scourge, all prettied up as being sophisticated, and is okay for very rare occasions, but gives me gout. So there are so many ways that alcohol can get ya. Now we even have to turn the bible story around and try and turn wine into water. As Kurt Vonnegut sighs – So it goes. And while I’m thinking of him some of his sayings – quite gratuitous!
        * We are what we pretend to be, so we must be careful about what we pretend to be.’ …
        * ‘Everything was beautiful and nothing hurt.’ …
        https://www.penguin.co.uk/articles/2018/dec/best-kurt-vonnegut-quotes.html
        * ‘“Of course it is exhausting, having to reason all the time in a universe which wasn’t meant to be reasonable.”’

        • Sodical drinking has gone out now – just mentioning. But social drinking has remained at a lower level, it seems. But I think if only those people could have their own little home, a lot of that money would go into building a good life and a happier one. So more ‘soda’ and better still, water, would be today’s way.

  17. Expanding the breeding Program while still in Office, shit that will get all the haters fired up again wont it ?

    How dare she have another baby while in Office and running the Country.

  18. I wonder if I will go nuts soon or be able to carry on for a few years until I die, either semi-naturally or otherwise. I go away from discussing the faults in iour wonderful modern system and society and seek a break and some pleasure in a healthy way. I was looking for the acapella group The Real singing Water and got this series of items on sick people fighting a USA firm selling sick-making water. A cautionary tale.
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uvo5SS2CVmI

    Here is Water by The Real Group. Who make a great sound and image. We are all in this thing together around the world. Don’t you love these people and also our own with ideals and hope and practical measures to save and advance us all.
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T4z-wAa2iV4

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Real_Group
    The Real Group is an a cappella group from Sweden. Members are Emma Nilsdotter, Lisa Östergren, Anders Edenroth, Anton Forsberg and Jānis Strazdiņš. The group’s members compose and arrange most of their songs. They sing in English and Swedish and cite American vocalist Bobby McFerrin as an inspiration.

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